Grace vs. Works - Featuring Joe the Gentile

LDS/Christian

Beginning Dialog

Gentile Joe - Do you have to go to the celestial kingdom to become a god?

LDS- Yes

Gentile Joe - Do you have to be forgiven of your sins to go to the celestial kingdom?

LDS - Yes

Gentile Joe - Do you have to truly repent to be forgiven of your sins?

LDS - Yes

Gentile Joe - Does true repentance involve forsaking sin?

LDS - Yes

Gentile Joe - Have you forsaken all sin?
LDS - No, nobody has.
Gentile Joe - If you haven't forsaken all sin, then perhaps you have not truly repented.  If you have not truly repented, perhaps you are not forgiven of your sins.  And if you are not forgiven, perhaps you are not headed to the celestial heaven.

Desire

LDS - Well, first we must have the desire to change?

Gentile Joe - Spencer W. Kimball said "Desire is not sufficient".  "The saving power does not extend to him who merely wants to change his life.  True repentance prods one to action."  (Miracles of Forgiveness pg.163)

Trying to do our best

LDS - We always have to try and do the best we can.

Gentile Joe - Kimball said "Trying is not sufficient".  He used the example of a soldier with his army officer.  "And army officer called a soldier to him and ordered him to take a message to another officer.  The soldier saluted and said, 'I'll try, sir! I'll try!'  To this the officer responded: 'I don't want you to try, I want you to deliver this message.'  The soldier, somewhat embarrassed, now replied: 'I'll do the best I can, sir.'  At this the officer now disgusted, rejoined with some vigor: 'I don't want you to try and I don't want you to "do the best you can."  I want you to deliver this message.'  Now the young soldier, straightening to his full height, approached the matter magnificently as he thought, when he saluted again and said: 'I'll do it or die, sir.'  To this the now irate officer responded: 'I don't want you to die, and I don't want you merely to do the best you can, and I don't want you to try. Now, the request is a reasonable one; the message is important; the distance is not far; you are able-bodied; you can do what I have ordered. Now get out of here and accomplish your mission.' "  Kimball went on to say, "To 'try' is weak.  To 'do the best I can' is not strong. We must always do better than we can."  (Miracles of Forgiveness pg.164-165)

Former sins return

LDS - Nobody is perfect.  No one can completely stop sinning.

Gentile Joe - Spencer W. Kimball focused on D&C 82:7.  This verse says, "Unto that soul who sinneth shall the former sins return, saith the Lord you God."  He describes it in this way, "To return to sin is most destructive to the morale of the individual and gives Satan another hand-hold on his victim.  Those who feel that they can sin and be forgiven and then return to sin and be forgiven again and again must straighten out their thinking.  Each previously forgiven sin is added to the new one and the whole gets to be a heavy load."

      Here is my old, incorrect view of D&C 82:7:  If I were to repent of lying and stopped lying for 15 years, I would be doing well.  But if I then told another lie after that 15 years, the guilt of all my former lies would come back on me.  The Doctrine and Covenants passage does not separate sins into categories.  It simple says "sin".  If you repeat a sin, the guilt of all your former sins returns to you.

No Commandment

LDS - It is impossible to be 100% perfect.

Gentile Joe - 1 Nephi 3:7 says, "...the Lord giveth no commandments unto the children of men, save he shall prepare a way for them that they may accomplish the thing which he commandeth them."  This verse does not say we can accomplish half of the commandments God has given.  It does not say we should be able to accomplish 90% of God's commandments.  It says God has only given commandments that we can accomplish.

Sufficient grace

LDS - God gives us grace to follow the commandments.

Gentile Joe - Moroni 10:32 gives us an if-then statement.  We are all familiar with this if-then statement:  "If you finish all your vegetables, you can have some desert."  Moroni 10:32 is an if-then statement:  "...if ye shall deny yourselves of all ungodliness, and love God with all your might, mind and strength, then is his grace sufficient for you, that by his grace ye may be perfect in Christ;..."  According to this verse, God's grace is only sufficient for us if we do four things.  We must deny ourselves of ALL ungodliness.  We must love God with all our might, mind and strength.  Has anyone denied himself of all ungodliness?  Does anyone love God with all his might, mind and strength?  If we prayed for 20 minutes, could we have prayed for 25 minutes?  If we have fed the hungry, could we have done more?  According to this verse, who can really qualify for God's grace?

After all we can do

LDS - 2 Nephi 25:23 say, "...for we know that it is by grace that we are saved, after all we can do."

Gentile Joe - When will you have done all that you can do so you can be saved by grace?  What if you only accomplish 98% of all you can do?  Will the 98% be close enough to all you can do?

No unclean thing

LDS - I believe forgiveness is a long process.

Gentile Joe - If a person is in the process of forsaking sin, then they haven't completely forsaken sin.  Alma 11:37 says, "And I say unto you again that he cannot save them in their sins; for I cannot deny his word, and he hath said that no unclean thing can inherit the kingdom of heaven; therefore, how can ye be saved, except ye inherit the kingdom of heaven?  Therefore, ye cannot be saved in your sins."

Forsake sin

LDS - I believe repentance is a gradual process

Gentile Joe - D&C 58:42-43 implies that there are two states - repenting and forsaking sin or not repenting and not forsaking sin.  These verses say, "Behold, he who has repented of his sins, the same is forgiven, and I, the Lord, remember them no more.  By this ye may know if a man repenteth of his sins - behold, he will confess them and forsake them."

Unholy temples

LDS - I don't believe God expects us to be perfect.

Gentile Joe - Helaman 4:24 says, "...the Spirit of the Lord doth not dwell in unholy temples."

The heart

LDS - I believe that God looks at our heart.

Gentile Joe - That is true but Jeremiah 17:9&10 states, "The heart is deceitful above all things, and desperately wicked: who can know it?  I the Lord search the heart,..."  We can often look good on the outside and have bad things in our heart.  We can smile at someone and shake their hand but hate them in our heart.  We can lust after someone in our heart even though we do not act on those thoughts.  The heart is harder to manage.

A space of time

LDS - I believe that there will be a space of time between this life and the celestial heaven where we will gain more knowledge and have time to perfect ourselves.

Gentile Joe - If we were to compare 1st grade math to calculus, we could say that 1st grade math is easier.  It takes a larger knowledge base to pass calculus.  If you were to gain 10 times your current knowledge during that space of time, you would have 10 times as many commands to obey.  The more you know, the more responsibility you have. If you can't be perfect now, it will be much harder to be perfect with more knowledge.  Spencer W. Kimball also believed that it would become harder to repent after this life.  On page 11 of the Miracles of Forgiveness, Spencer W. Kimball quoted Apostle Melvin J. Ballard. "This life is the time to repent. That is why I presume it will take a thousand years after the first resurrection until the last group will be prepared to come forth.  It will take them a thousand years to do what it would have taken but three-score and ten to accomplish in this life."

Wages and Debt

LDS - I believe it is a combination of works and faith together.

Gentile Joe - Romans 4:4&5 says, "Now to him who works, the wages are not counted as grace but as debt.  But to him who does not work but believes on Him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is accounted for righteousness,..."

Submit to God's Righteousness
LDS - I do not believe that a person can just say a sinner's prayer and then go live anyway he wants to.  How can he be saved to the Celestial heaven?
Gentile Joe - According to the book of Mormon, that person is not born again.  Mosiah 27:25-26 says, "...Marvel not that all mankind, yea, men and women, all nations kindreds, tongues and people, must be born again; yea, born of God, changed from their carnal and fallen state, to a state of righteousness, being redeemed of God, becoming his sons and daughters; And thus they become new creatures; and unless they do this, they can in nowise inherit the kingdom of God."  Romans 10:3-4 tells us that we are to lean on the righteousness of God rather than our own righteousness.  "For they being ignorant of Gods righteousness, and going about to establish their own righteousness, have not submitted themselves unto the righteousness of God.  For Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to every one that believeth."  When we become a son of God, we should have our eyes focused more on Christ and his work on the cross.  We should have less focus on our own works.

Schoolmaster

LDS - I believe we can draw closer to God by following his commandments.

Gentile Joe - The commandments can make us feel farther away from God.  As you go through the 10 commandments, you will probably find that you have broken most of them.  In Matthew 5:21&22 Jesus said, "Ye have heard that is was said by them of old time, Thou shalt not kill; and whosoever shall kill shall be in danger of the judgement: But I say unto you, That whosoever is angry with his brother without a cause shall be in danger of the judgment: and whosoever shall say to his brother, Raca shall be in danger of the council: but whosoever shall say, Thou fool, shall be in danger of hell fire."  In Matthew 5:28&29 Jesus said, "Ye have heard that is was said by them of old time, Thou shalt not commit adultery: But I say unto you That whosoever looketh on a woman to lust after her hath committed adultery with her already in his heart."  If I compare myself to somebody down the street, I might look pretty good.  When I compare myself to God's law, I look like a sinner.  Then I realize I desperately need a savior.  So the law points me to my need for Christ.  It is my schoolmaster. Galatians 3:24-25 says, "Wherefore the law was our schoolmaster to bring us unto Christ, that we might be justified by faith.  But after that faith is come, we are no longer under a schoolmaster.""

Daily Repentance
LDS - God has given us the gift of repentance.  I repent of my sins everyday as part of my forgiveness process.
Gentile Joe - In April of 1995, Richard Scott quoted Joseph Smith in General Conference.  Joseph Smith declared: “Repentance is a thing that cannot be trifled with every day.  Daily transgression and daily repentance is not … pleasing in the sight of God.”  If you had a friend that confessed he lied to you, apologized and never lied to you again, you would call him a true friend.  If you had a friend that lied everyday to your face and apologized daily, you would never call him a genuine friend.  You would probably start avoiding that so-called friend.

Ephesians 2:8&9

LDS - I still believe that we are saved by grace after all we can do.

Gentile Joe - Ephesians 2:8&9 says, "For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: Not of works, lest any man should boast."